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CO Tiers discussion

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CO Tiers discussion

Postby Hellraider » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:33 pm

Since this got stickied, I made some revisions and further elaborated upon the COs strengths and weaknesses on different maps.


Broken: Kanbei, Colin, Grit, Sensei, Hachi, Javier2T+

Kanbei: On small maps, preferably without airports, Kanbei is next to unbeatable. But even on bigger maps he can take on and possibly overpower the other brokens. However, once he can't gain a significant advantage early enough anymore, he will probably get outteched by Colin/Hachi or outstalled by Grit.

Colin: Of the two funds-based COs Colin is generally the better CO than Hachi, except when there are too few bases too far away from the front and no airport. Not to mention that it is possible for him to get 1 turn of OHKOs on every reasonable matchup, especially useful against Grit.

Hachi: As mentioned, few bases far away from the frontlines, especially islands without bases, make his SCOP very efficient.

Grit: Grit fares best on small to medium sized maps with enough chokes where he can build enough arties before Kanbei or Sensei steamroll him and waltz over Colin/Hachi before they amass enough funds.

Sensei: His strength is very difficult to measure, it depends on how much these masses of infantry/mechs actually can do. Once again, he profits from islands without bases and generally lots of frontline cities. Of course, Bcopters don't hurt either.

Javier: The newest addition who usually isn't listed because there are next to no maps with more than 1 Tower per side, probably lacks the brokenness of the other brokens to fight them head on. However, he has decent chances against Grit and he is at any rate way too strong for Tier 1 COs to take on. Of course, he becomes really imbalanced once there are even more Towers per side.


Tier 1: Javier1T, Sturm, Von Bolt, Sami, Nell

Javier1T: He is usually regarded as the strongest Tier 1 CO, with a very formidable dtd and a COP which grants him Kanbei stats with added near-invulnerability against indirects for one turn. However, many people forget that 1T means that the opponent gets one too. Furthermore, +20% defence against indirects doesn't mean that the opponent can't build any. They are still useful in some situations, but of course spamming them is a bad idea against Javier.

Sturm: Just like Javier, he also greatly profits from a Tower. Furthermore, both his defence and his perfect movement become a lot more useful with heavy terrain, making him perfect for forest/mountain-filled maps. And while it takes long to charge, his SCOP is very devastating, often winning a front by itself. This is especially relevant because Sturm has an easy time to stall a long time with indirects hidden behind 120 defence infantry. Unfortunately for him, he is often banned due to possible recon issues in the opening.

Von Bolt: Arguably having the best day to day, he offers 110/110 stats and a slightly overpriced SCOP. On maps without towers, not too many forests, a lot of funds per base and early infantry/tank battles he can easily be the best choice.

Sami: She is the only Tier 1 CO without any defence bonus and with a weakness to boot. To stand a chance against the others she has to utilize her Mechs to the fullest. Obviously, she profits from low funding and bases close to the frontline. It is also a good idea to play the capture phase aggressively and engange in early infantry battles. Not only are her infantry strong, trading infantry also makes it easier for her to use Mechs later.

Nell: She is usually banned (at least by me), because luck shouldn't be the main factor deciding about win and loss. If she is allowed, she fares best on maps with a lot of bases and/or low funding, resulting in a lot of infantry. Generally she likes directs (more mobility to luckshot things) and copters (with (S)COP, her infantry or even copters themselves can easily luck away AAs)


Tier 2: Sasha, Kindle, Lash, Hawke, Sonja FoW

Sasha: She does well on bigger maps, where her income advantage allows for easier teching, especially for bigger sea or air units. Furthermore, her COP can more easily shut down the opponents powers for some time while frequently granting her +10/+10. When it comes to expensive sea or air battles, her SCOP becomes useful too, possibly granting her more than one turn of income. Note that she is one of the best counters for SCOP-based COs like Andy, Rachel or Eagle.

Kindle: She suffers from the fact that her day to day is a lot less useful than it sounds. Usually the opponent will avoid being attacked from cities anyway, and on the defence, Von Bolt, Javier and Sturm are better at parking tanks on cities. Her real threat is her COP, which forces the opponent off the properties, while she has ridiculous attackpower on them herself. However, in some situations and on some maps it can be very easy to avoid sitting on properties by protecting them with indirects. Generally Kindle should avoid situations where no battle occurs, due to the fact that her COP doesn't become stronger when more units are in the game.

Lash: Quite obviously, her abilities are made for terrainheavy maps. With (usually) the stronger day to day, she likes tank/infantry tradeoffs as well as Mechs on mountains. Her COP is next to unusable, while her SCOP is one of the few powers which grant more then the default +10% defence bonus. To fully utilize it you will usually need a decent amount of tanks.

Hawke: 110/100 is no Von Bolt, but still one of the better day to days around. He can shine in fast-paced games, where his attack bonus will win infantry and tank battles, while he also wins standoffs against a lot of COs. With slightly overprized, but versatile powers he is a true jack-of-all-trades.

Sonja (FoW): She can actually use her hidden HP, and her extended vision range is nice too. The surplus on information kind of makes up for the lack of power/defence.


Tier 3: Rachel, Eagle, Grimm, Adder, Andy

Rachel: She likes mediumsized maps, where enough units for her SCOP to hit are around, but without enough time to divert her missiles with infantry clusters. Having enough funds/cities to use her repair bonus helps too.

Eagle: He shines on big maps with a lot of units and preferably air. The longer the game becomes, the stronger he becomes too. To get the most out of his SCOP, he usually wants a lot of low-priced vehicles and copters, so no Mechs and no expensive stuff. And while his copters are great, they still get OHKOd by AA and are fairly expensive. Don't build an excessive amount of them.

Grimm: I really feel that he is greatly underestimated and suffers from a bad reputation. With 130/80 stats, he has a slight advantage day to day on light terrain, however what really makes him Grimm is his ability to OHKO infantry with tanks on 0-star terrain without tower. So obviously, Grimm likes maps with light terrain and no towers. Most his games will turn into a tank/infantry fest, because Mechs and artillery are too vulnerable and immobile for both players. Compared to other COs he probably has the least chance against the defence monsters or Sami who nearly OHKOs his infantry day to day. However, he shines on low terrain maps with tankspam tendencies. Also, he probably has the best non-broken copters in the game.

Andy: He likes heated tank battles for him to abuse his SCOP. What works well too are Mechs, which often get harassed by infantry, and Md tanks, because you can let them eat one shot by an arty the turn before SCOP.

Adder: He likes Mechs, infantry and tanks. Similar to Sami, trading infantry early can be a good idea. However, engaging in bigger battles without a few Mechs around is a bad idea usually.


Tier 4: Koal, Olaf, Drake, Jake, Max

Koal: The road bonus can come in quite handy at time, making some 2HKOs possible. With movement powers, spamming Mechs works very well for him. Furthermore, his COP already allows him to OHKO infantry on roads from roads with tanks, a common matchup. Note that he doesn't have an advantage on roads.

Olaf: His COP can be useful when the opponent mainly relies on tanks to cover eachother and the snow makes the coverage insufficient. However, that is a rare case, so you will end up using his SCOP, 2 HP mass damage and snow anyway.

Drake: On sea maps or in rain he easily moves one or two tiers up, with enormous naval defence and enhanced movement (especially relevant for Black Boats). Usually using his SCOP is the better idea, unless the opponent has Stealths/subs or refueling is difficult.

Jake: His main asset is his improved indirect range on COP, making him a kind of pseudo-Grit. So if you manage to clump up a lot of indirects while slowly charging your power you have already gained a big advantage. The SCOP can be devastating in big battles, where his tanks and arties basically reach everything they want.

Max: He likes tanks and copters, and on open maps where you can't stall him he can easily move up one or two tiers. Obviously, being nearly totally unable to use indirects is a big handicap. You also have to build an own Md tank to counter a Md tank.


Tier 5: Jugger, Flak, Sonja, Jess, Javier0T

Sonja: Her bad luck has about the effect of having 90/100 units on most matchups in the 50% area, giving her an absolutely horrible day to day. Her counterattack barely does more damage due to the bad luck, and the HP of her units can be traced via the log.

Jess: With one tower and about 7000 income per base, she becomes a somewhat decent choice, because she can use mainly tanks/artillery while the tower gives her infantry at least the usualy 2HKO abilities.

Javier0T: He has enhanced defence against indirects, but that isn't really anything great. On maps favoring indirects he at least has the possibility to somewhat charge in with his powers.

Flak, Jugger: They are probably not that bad on average, but nobody wants to play Russian Roulette.
Last edited by Hellraider on Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:57 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Postby psycho guy » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:04 pm

hawke always makes lash obsolete

wtf u doin man

also Lash has like the worst SCOP ever

worse than sasha scop loooool

uh wow you get something that's worse than +70/40 on a city (stacked with d2d)... for 7 stars


comon man Lash is pathetic
you wait 7 stars just so you can get awesome city stats and mediocre stats on other terrain?

and watchoo mean kindle d2d nonexistant


also Adder rox for infantry movement and reinforcement speeds uh lol be specific if it was just movement you could just use Max btw Max should be higher

Grimm sucks, powers lack punch compared to uh, everyone except lash
just changes unit matchups on both sides and ohkos infantry with tank
he gives opponent slight luck boost d2d which makes his stats worse
his powers let him counter better, but who cares

where normal javier
btw javier sucks because sturm vb hawke jake are better at fullscale indirect war

wheres the part where you talk about nell infantry and nell artillery vs infantry and any low damage matchup or near ohko matchup


wheres the part where you talk about 55 matchup for the COs with d2d
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Postby Taz » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:22 pm

Again, the CO tiers are heavily map-dependant.

So:

Javier 1T: Tier 0 - Tier 1: broken on indirect-friendly maps, but beatable on open maps.
Sami: Tier 0 - Tier 2: She's tier 0 (broken) if there are important contested properties, or exposed HQs, tier 1 in standard small-medium maps (mechs can reach the front quickly), tier 2 in larger maps, where she won't be able to take an important early lead.
Sturm: Tier 0 - Tier 2: He can be broken if he can abuse his early recons. Otherwise, he is probably tier 1 in a map with lots of heavy terrain, and tier 2 if the fight is mainly on roads and plains.
Von Bolt: Tier 1. Nothing to say here.
Kindle: Tier 1-2: On large maps, she is more than a match for Von Bolt or Javier 1T: She gets frequent and devastating Urban Blights. And her D2D is still good: Tanks will hesitate before attacking Kindle on a city. Moreover, it's a good deterrent: you will not attack one of Kindle's cities unless you know what you do. Enough to make her tier 2 on smaller maps.
Sasha: Tier 1-2: She is Tier 1 on medium-sized maps, where she has enough funds to drain her opponent's bar efficiently, and not enough to refill it immediately. Against VB, she gets more funds, and frequent D2D while denying him his power. She is weaker against short-bar COs like Kindle, Javier or Nell.
Nell, Lash: Tier 2, I agree here. Lash is probably stronger on small maps (good D2D), and Nell on large maps (great powers).
Adder: Tier 2-4: Well, I love using Adder. The +1 movement is very often handy. Adder is especially feared in mech-friendly maps, but weak in chokepointy maps.
Rachel: Tier 2-4. I'd say tier 2 on small maps, and 4 on very large maps, where her SCOP is virtually unnoticed.
Eagle: Tier 2-4: The opposite: Tier 2 on large maps where he has time to get a devastating SCOP, and an airforce, tier 4 on small land maps.
Andy: Tier 2-4: Same as Eagle: Tier 2 on large maps, where he has frequent powers, and 4 on small maps.
Drake: Tier 2-4: Tier 2 in sea maps only. Otherwise he's pretty weak.
Jake: Tier 2-4: He's worthless on open maps (he's far outclassed by movement COs), but can be an interesting choice on chokepointy maps.
Max: Tier 2-5: Max is a very good pick on open maps. He unfortunately becomes the worst CO around in chokepointy maps.
Hawke, Grimm: Tier 3. Hawke has a slightly stronger D2D than Grimm, but usually weaker powers (although they become quite good on larger maps).
Sonja: Tier 3. Playing against Sonja is a real pain. The enhanced counterattack can almost reverse first strikes, and the hidden HP make planning difficult. And the SCOP is very good, better than Lash's. In fog, she probably becomes tier 1.
Koal: Tier 3: He has a longer COP than Adder, and because of that slightly weaker on maps where the +1 movement is handy. However, his SCOP gives him a decent firepower, allowing him to break through roady chokepoints, which Adder can't do. He can thus be used on almost any map, provided there are enough roads.
Olaf: Tier 3-4: I'd say tier 3 on large maps, 4 on small.
Jess: Tier 3-4: She is actually underestimated, and can do a decent job on land-only maps. After all, infantries are more used for taking hits than giving them. On maps with air or sea she is pretty weak, however.
Flak, Jugger: Tier 5. In average, they're not that bad, but their unreliability is their loss.
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Postby Ultra Storm » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:00 pm

I mostly agree with Hellraider's list. My view is the following:

Broken: Kanbei, Grit, Sensei, Colin, Hachi

Tier 1: Javier (1 tower), Von Bolt, Sturm

Tier 2: Sasha, Sami, Kindle, Nell, Sonja (fog)

Tier 3: Eagle, Lash, Rachel, Andy, Grimm, Jake

Tier 4: Hawke, Max, Sonja (no fog), Adder, Koal, Drake, Olaf

Tier 5: Javier (0 towers), Flak, Jugger, Jess

These are done on maps on average, so it's no surprise tier 2 COs often beat VB on spesific maps but VB is a better CO overall.

Taz wrote:Hawke, Grimm: Tier 3. Hawke has a slightly stronger D2D than Grimm, but usually weaker powers (although they become quite good on larger maps).

Note that Hawke can't OHKO much with his units while Grimm can, especially with a com tower and during COP. On open maps, Grimm with a tower utterly massacres Grit, for instance. How many non-broken COs can say that? Grimm's battleships, air units and indirects behind rivers and mountains are superb. Of course, OHKOing Grimm's units is also easy and he must position his units accordingly. Grimm is risky but being extreme is usually better than being bland.
Last edited by Ultra Storm on Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hellraider » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:10 pm

I think that good maps which put Javier, Sturm or Sami into such a big advantage that they would be broken are very rare. A map really needs to be impossible to play without indirects in order to make Javier considerable better than the others, and these maps tend to stalemate very easily. As long as not only infantry are used to fight over contested properties, the other Tier 1s have advantages there as well. About Sturm, people usually try to avoid problems with his recons when making maps.
I can see Sasha being better on bigger maps, but I don't think the same about Kindle. On many bigger maps, the frontlines don't involve considerably more properties. Also, if there are many units killing each others, a lot of "charge" for her bar is wasted in the turn she uses her COP. Even on a medium sized maps she gets her 2nd COP about the time where VB/Sturm/Sami get their SCOP. I've played lots of games with her, and her d2d is really weak compared to the others. VB, Javier and even Sturm do better in parking units on cities.

Adder can be surprisingly useful on choked maps, because they tend to be partly mechfriendly and his COP often gives him the possibility to break chokes by attacking them from rivers or mountains. The reason why I put Hawke one tier lower than Grimm is that they have about the same d2d, Hawkes is a bit better but Grimm has his OHKOs and meatshield breaker skills while having strong powers. While Grimm mathematically gains less from towers, he actually gets another handy bunch of OHKOs. And Jess fails because you do need infantry to break meatshields. No use in slightly better vehicles if you have to waste their shots on removing meatshields.
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Postby EchelonThree » Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:43 pm

Broken: Kanbei, Grit, Sensei, Colin, Hachi, Koal

No need to say, but koal doesn't even need a base to win

Tier 1: Javier (1 tower), Von Bolt, Sturm, Sami

Very strong COs with good D2D, Jav 1 Tower is an excellent CO, but on open maps, his indirect defense is greatly attenuated.

Tier 2: Kindle, Nell, Lash, Sasha, Sonja FoW
Another 5 COs, Sasha is all rounded, her +10% income and stopping powers is good, but I don't think it can beat the Kindle revenue dept.

Nell is a bit unreliable, but she still averages a good deal of damage

Lash has excellent D2D, a mediocre COP, and an amazing SCOP, unfortunately, it takes ages to

Tier 3: Jake, Eagle, Rachel, Andy, Grimm

Eagle has a good SCOP, but otherwise is pretty weak.

Jake's frequent COP powers with his +1 range artillery are devastating in standoff games.

Rachel has the "chokepoint hammer" and 3 repair, always good to have.

Andy can fix up an entire army and is virtually immune to mass damage.

Grimm is great for players who like to charge enemy lines, his artillery is devastating at chokepoints, pity his meatshields don't hold well

Tier 4: Hawke, Sonja, Adder, Koal, Olaf, Drake

Hawke is a free com tower

Adder and Koal are pretty much the same to me, generally used for the +1MP COP.

Olaf's snow is a pain, 2 mass damage hurts bad too. As for drake.... that's just a pissoff

Tier 5: Jess, Max
Max, and Jess are slightly below, they're not bad COs, but very situational.

Jess has a general advantage in most situations with vehicles 110/100 with tanks and arty never hurts anyone and is a great terrain counter, with a comms tower, Jess is easily tier 4-3.

Max is simply put, the sledgehammer when it comes to early rush tactics, 120%, I like using him, but in a drawn out match, his artillery lets him down

Tier 6: Javier (0 towers), Flak, Jugger


Here's my call on COs.
Last edited by EchelonThree on Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tyrael » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:56 am

It's all map dependant anyway, so who cares?
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Postby Taz » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:14 am

Which is why I made map-dependant tiers.
The point is to choose who should be banned on a specific map to play with a certain tier of COs.
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Postby Ultra Storm » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:16 am

Tyrael wrote:It's all map dependant anyway, so who cares?

It is possible to make map dependant tiers. For instance, the optional and mandatory bans in the ladder are such tiers. However, a general tier list which is made on average can also be a useful tool in analyzing COs.
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Postby Harti » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:28 am

EchelonThree wrote:Tier 6: Javier (0 towers), Flak, Jugger

Words like these out of your mouth :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


You also forgot Koal being broken
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Postby EchelonThree » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:36 am

Harti wrote:
EchelonThree wrote:Tier 6: Javier (0 towers), Flak, Jugger

Words like these out of your mouth :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


You also forgot Koal being broken


0 towers... haha....

Well I'd never choose him on a 0 tower map, nobody does, so I'd have to derive that he's a bad choice...

I don't mind using him if I get him in a league for his indirect bonus.

Jav 0 T essentially has a 3 star COP that gives him good indirect defense, not much to scream about.
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Postby Harti » Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:15 am

I created an Excel file according to my point of view, showing possible imbalances between CO match-ups, where -3 means the CO has a horrible match-up and 3 a perfect one. Of course, the CO match-ups depend on how open the map is, how important aerial/naval warfare is, and if FOW is used or not.
However, I tried to compare the COs' D2D powers (cp. Grit vs Javier), had a look on the powers then (cp. Andy vs Olaf) and how powers would work against the opponent's D2D (cp. Jake vs Max; Rachel vs Sonja).
I ignored luck most of the time, except for Nell vs Rachel, Flak, Jugger, and when it comes to beat heavy units (Kanbei) with (S)COP luck.



The category names were kinda arbitrary and were taken from some Brawl Tier lists:

God Tier (80% or higher): Colin, Grit, Hachi, Kanbei, Sensei
Top Tier (35% or higher): Andy, Hawke, Kindle, Sami, Sturm, Von Bolt
Mid Tier (20% or higher): Grimm, Jake, Javier, Lash, Max, Nell, Olaf, Sasha
Low Tier (less than 20%): Adder, Drake, Eagle, Flak, Jess, Jugger, Koal, Sonja



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Any major flaws in some single match-up cells?
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Postby Felix45 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:29 pm

I'm sure smacky would have something to say about hachi vs kindle :roll:
[23:09] <Gabo> hey guys, i have a question
[23:09] <Gabo> is it possible to transfer games from one account toanother on steam?
[23:09] <felix45> fire away lotion master
[23:10] <felix45> ROFL
[23:10] <Gabo> =_=
[23:10] <felix45> sorry I cant let that go :P
[23:10] <felix45> oh and I dont think so gabo
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Postby Felix45 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:38 pm

I'm sure smacky would have something to say about hachi vs kindle :roll:

aaand I definitley don't agree with any of that really harti...


anyways here is my list

broken 5

VB, sturm, sami, 1T javier, kindle
sasha, nell, sonja FoW, lash
eagle, rachel, andy, grimm
jake, hawke, max, sonja, adder, koal, drake, olaf
javier, flak, jugger, jess

I'm not confident about where I put sasha, rachel, and jake. everyone else fits their category just fine.


edit: sorry bout the double post....heh
Last edited by Felix45 on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[23:09] <Gabo> hey guys, i have a question
[23:09] <Gabo> is it possible to transfer games from one account toanother on steam?
[23:09] <felix45> fire away lotion master
[23:10] <felix45> ROFL
[23:10] <Gabo> =_=
[23:10] <felix45> sorry I cant let that go :P
[23:10] <felix45> oh and I dont think so gabo
[23:10] <Gabo> the worst part is that i do like lotions <_<
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Postby Ultra Storm » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:03 pm

Grimm -3 against Grit? It's the opposite.

And most of the figures in the table seem arbitrary, anyway. the concept is also flawed. Not all COs face all other COs equally often. Especially the broken COs who most COs rarely have to face distort the table. Furthermore, some COs simply outshadow each other which makes them drop a tier even if they would be situationally better than some COs in the upper tier.
Last edited by Ultra Storm on Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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