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Postby Harti » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:13 pm

Ultra Storm wrote:Grimm -3 against Grit? It's the opposite. For instance, Grimm beat Grit on Blastwave in 8 days. The same applies to Kanbei against Grit.

Never saw a game with top players being Grimm vs Grit. This applies to most of the broken COs.

Is Eagle low tier?

Not at all, that's why I was asking for certain match-up flaws.

And most of the figures in the table seem arbitrary, anyway.

They are based on my experience, on my point of view. I didn't say anything about they must be right :)
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Postby Ultra Storm » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:22 pm

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I was Grimm, Hellraider was Grit. As we expected, Grimm easily won. With the help of the com tower, Grimm's recons OHKO infs on shoals and his tanks even OHKO arties. So, Hellraider resigned on day 8. Grimm is one of the best COs against Grit if the map is open enough and has low terrain defence. Even if it isn't, Grimm is still better than most COs against Grit because of his powers.
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Postby Harti » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:25 pm

Thank you :)
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Postby SmackCakes » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:04 pm

Hellraider wrote:Kindle has a mostly nonexistant day to day, because usually nobody lets himself being attacked from properties anyway. Urban Blight alone isn't strong enough.


That's like saying Grit has no day to day because no one lets themselves move into artillery range. It doesn't work that way.

Cities are the most important terrain in the game. Taking even one city from your opponent is often enough to swing the game in your favour. Kindle has a serious advantage fighting on and around cities, which is something players do every game, assuming they want to own cities and have some funds.

Also urban blight is ridiculously strong. It forces the enemy off high terrain, turning the map into a veritable mine field. While the opponent is busy pussyfooting around trying to "not let themselves get attacked from properties". Kindle laughs at enemy units on properties as they take 3hp direct damage and then get KOed easily by 110/110 units.

Then when the property is clear she can move her own units onto it and have 180% attack on anything behind.

Sasha has a good dtd, but unless it brings an opening advantage in form of an early BB or APC, it isn't that noticable.


Not that noticeable apart from her having more units and a better economy. I would pick Sasha over VB any day on a sea map, her extra income is absolutely brutal.
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Postby Hellraider » Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:54 am

Yes it does work this way. The extra range gives Grit more control area. The +40 attack on cities gives Kindle very little day to day.

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=91254

Like in that game, I got about no shot worth mentioning from a city in the entire game. Urban Blight hit exactly one tank (besides of the units built). Often a Nell or Sami COP would come handier than Urban Blight.

Obviously Sasha gets better the bigger the map is, but Von Bolt will most likely win the ground battle, and even maps featuring sea have a ground battle first. He nearly reverses first strikes from plains already. Sasha is never a bad choice, but in general Von Bolt/Javier1T will do better.
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Postby Taz » Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:56 am

I honestly think that Sasha rapes VB on a sea map:
High funds means that she has her COP one day out of two, and VB never gets his SCOP. And the extra income really gives her the upper hand on a sea battle, which finally helps turning the tides of the land battle.
Concerning Javier 1T, I agree with you, he has too short a bar for Sasha to be really efficient.
I already said what I think about Kindle...
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Postby Hellraider » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:04 am

That her day to day gives a lot of advantages?

Tanks:

Adder on road vs VB on city: 6-7, next turn 6/7 to 2/1
Adder on road vs Kindle on city: 5-6, next turn 5/6-1 or 6-0

VB on road vs Kindle on city: 6-6, next turn 5-2
Kindle on road vs VB on city: 6-7, next turn 6/7 to 2/1

Note that usually people don't attack tanks on cities with an own tank unless they can attack it another time. VB's tank will survive this even with one tower per side. So Von Bolt is about the same, sometimes worse and sometimes better, as Kindle on properties, while having a big advantage everywhere else.

The thing about Sasha is that we don't have (or rather don't use) a lot of maps where the sea battle decides about victory and defeat, the only one I can think of now is Awe of She. And even there Von Bolt profits a lot from his day to day, making it possible for him to gain a decivise advantage for example in form of a property, basically negating Sasha's income bonus, before her income bonus along with the sea battle kicks in. Also, Von Bolts subs on reefs reverse first strike against other subs.
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Postby Taz » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:03 am

I didn't say her D2D was as good as VB's, but that it was not to be neglected. I said she was tier 1 or 2 depending on the size of the map: she can only compete with VB/Javier 1T on large maps.

It's true, however, that we do not have a lot of good land/sea maps. I had designed Snake Island to help fill this gap (by the way, the sea battle is more important there than it is on Awe of She...)
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Postby psycho guy » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:18 am

uh von bolt totally wins sea maps -_-

him and sturm



and drake if it's some huge 21947284 fund sea battle

any CO based on firepower or movement will fail miserably at sea





random side discussion s***

Max is great on quite a few maps. Massacres VB if the base to income ratio is low. Usually these maps also have airports to somewhat alleviate this issue. Makes indirects less viable.
On ground maps, he's easily countered with md tank followed up by artillery to counter his md tanks. Air maps, md tanks are no problem with bombers and copters.
Can be countered with mech arty too, depending on opponent's CO choice somewhat.

Eagle is hilarious with copter abuse + hella lotta mountains.
SCOP breaks game mechanics.

Jake suxxorz, I just use VB or Vader or Hawke for indirect lolz
jake needs to be like tier 10 or something
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Postby benbever » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:55 pm

Here's a good tier list (mine)

Top Tier: 1tJavier, Von Bolt, Kindle, Sturm, Sasha, Sami, Nell
1tJavier gets 110/110 and added indirect defense, no negatives makes him the best nonbroken.
Von Bolts 110/110 make him automatic top tier.
Kindle has the property bonus and 3 star blight, can even take on Von Bolt succesfully (as shown in testgames.)
Sturm has 80/120 for a good d2d bonus, free movement that can make him broken, and awesome meteor powers, he too can take on Von Bolt.
Sasha is always a safe choice, good against long bar co's, but less good against Nell, Sami, Kindle and 1tJavier.
Sami has the footsoldier bonus, movement on (s)cop and the capture bonus to make her great, especially during scop she's gamebreaking.
Nell has a great d2d and even greater yet very cheap powers.


High Tier: Andy, Lash, Eagle, Grimm, Drake, Rachel
Eagle and his scop are obviously high tier, Eagle is always dangerous, especially with air and indirects.
Lash has a good d2d, and a good scop, no negatives.
Andy is somewhat bland, but a decent cop and superb scop make him high tier, and he counters a bunch of co's.
Grimm has a good net d2d, and great attack powers.
Drake has a great d2d, (extra mp and def for ships, rain immunity) and his powers do a lot of stuff, like rain, mass damage, fuel halving. 160 defense battleships and 8mp black boats make him the best on large seamaps with random weather. On maps with no rain and no navy, but with air, he's just a good medium tier.
Rachel has missiles dealing a lot of damage to the fronts (hopefully) and quicker repairs, making her top tier on small low deployment maps, and medium to high tier on very big high deployment maps.

Medium Tier: Adder, Koal, Jake, Max, Olaf, Hawke, 0tJavier
Adder and Koal have cheap cops, for movement for all units, meaning great footsoldiers, which makes them superb on some maps and against some co's.
Jake has a nice little d2d, and great artillery, making him very useful on some maps.
Max is very map dependant, low tier on some, top tier on others.
Olaf has snow immunity, but rain counts as snow, his cop is very useful, his scop is good but expensive.
Hawke has a good d2d, but a very long powerbar. He does counter some mass damage co's, but has a lot of trouble against some other co's.
Javier without towers just has the indirect defense, which is a good d2d, and a cheap cop for an early 110/110 and added indirect defense. If the map has little or no need for indirects (but most maps have) then he's low tier.

Low Tier: Sonja, Jess, Jugger, Flak
Sonja gets bad luck which kills her. I have played enough games with and versus sonja to know that this is true. She does less damage and receives more counterdamage because of that. Her cop is useless outside FOW, her scop is useful but can't save her. In FOW games she can be medium or high tier.
Jess gets 90/100 infantry, the vehicle bonus doesn't make up for that, and she gets 90/100 ships and planes too.
Jugger and Flak get some d2d boost, but not much and it's unreliable, often it's bad luck. Their powers can be useful, but don't do much, a chance of doing extra damage, but also a chance of doing fewer damage. Flak is considered to be the worst co. He's better than blan though, because of the 110/110 during powers.

edit: added Rachel :)
edit2: added 0tJavier
Last edited by benbever on Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Felix45 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:58 pm

ben you forgot rachel
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Postby benbever » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:16 pm

lol, I knew I forgot someone. I love Rachel, sorry Rachel for forgetting you ;_;
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Postby mrapex » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:45 pm

like benbevers.

hawke is not low tier, which is shown on the other tier lists
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Postby Cereal Killer » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:58 pm

Here's my list, I decided to make six tiers because it seemed to work out better

Broken- Colin, Grit, Hachi, Kanbei, Sensei, and Sturm.
We all know why the first five are banned, but personally I beleive Sturm should be banned because perfect movement is just too cheap.

1st tier-Sasha, Kindle, Eagle, Von Bolt, 1 tower Javier.
Javier is in here with one tower obviously. Kindle and Sasha are both in here because of their COP's. Eagle's SCOP in my opinion places him easily in first tier. Von Bolt is very powered up and has a pretty decent SCOP too.

2nd tier-Nell, Sami, Jess, Drake, and Lash.
Nell has powerful luck, and Sami her infantry plus SCOP. Lash has a good D2D and decent COP's and SCOP's. Jess is great because land units (specifically vehicles) are used in almost every battle. Drake's power to make it rain and make enemy units lose half fuel are very detrimental to enemy's, and on sea maps he's especially dangerous.

3rd tier-Andy, Jake, Max, and Hawke.
All of their SCOP's pretty much landed them in this category. Max also has a pretty good D2D and Hawke as well. They are pretty neutral CO's except Max making them a decent enough choice on any map.

4th tier-Rachel, Olaf, Sonja, Javier, and Grimm.
These are pretty much all situational CO's. Javier when in an indirect battle, and Grimm when in mixed terrain. Olaf in snow. Rachel with quite a few cities. And Sonja in FOW. Most likely you'll find a better CO for the situations they're good in anyway.

5th tier- Adder, Flak, Koal, and Jugger.
People you should definitely never use. Though I'll probably get flamed about Adder, he's utterly useless and his SCOP can be countered by anyone who has any ounce of strategy in them. Flak and Jugger don't even need to be explained because they're so crappy. And Koal sucks even on roads, and we don't see much of those anyway.
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Postby SmackCakes » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:25 pm

Evil_Cereal_Killer wrote:Adder, he's utterly useless and his SCOP can be countered by anyone who has any ounce of strategy in them.


D2D he is bland, but his powers are okay. 3-4 move mechs can be very cheap and nasty. He's probably not as easy to counter as you think.
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