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Postby Ultra Storm » Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:21 am

Kindle may be able to beat Olaf but on most maps, Von Bolt, Sami and Sturm are clearly better COs than Kindle. On maps with a com tower, Javier is also better.

Spesifically, VB has more brute force than Kindle and even on cities his counterattacks are almost as good as Kindle's. All that Kindle really has over VB is her COP which, while very good, isn't usually enough.
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Postby SmackCakes » Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:29 am

benbever wrote: He can definately beat Colin, unless the map is very big. He counters Colins early game by having cheap units too, and his middlegame by spawning units. He only loses to Colin if Colin somehow manages to last long. And Hachi is that much broken, half cost units on all cities is pretty broken, piperunners on cities too.


I personally think Colin is way better than Hachi. His d2d is better, he saves double what Hachi saves, and more likely to be able to build a key unit much earlier.

The problem with Hachi is that if he saves up 60k and uses a power then his 60k will be worth 120k... but only for that one day. That means he has to spend it all in one day or lose it. This is quite difficult to do during COP. Easier during SCOP but that is more expensive.

Colin on the other hand can save 60k and then DGR making his 60k worth 135k. He'll probably even be able to Gold Rush again soon after and put that over 200k. That money is then his to keep and spend every single day even when he doesn't have a power. So he is in some sense now getting barter+ as a d2d ability. Which clearly makes him superior to Hachi who only gets barter every 3 stars.

Unless the map means city deployment is more broken than having barter as a d2d I would say that Colin is a much better CO.

Hellraider wrote:All I try to say is that she mostly isn't as strong as +def COs like Von Bolt or Javier1T. As I said before


That's not what you said, you said...

Hellraider wrote:Kindle has a mostly nonexistant day to day.


But I agree VB has a slightly easier to use d2d since you don't have to look for terrain. His power it utter fail though, 10 stars long and will probably get deflected and hit a lander. Kindle pisses on him from a great height when it comes to powers. With a decent amount of cities Kindle's high society would make VB crap his pants.

Great arty placement. I don't know whether there were Com Towers on the maps or whether you had a CO with an attack bonus, but Kindle wouldn't have been able to 2HKO the infantry on the property for sure.


Guess what? I didn't 2KO it. Though Kindle could have during COP or SCOP.

I have example of games too where I didn't get a lot of attacks from cities. Like every game I played in the last few months.


Maybe you're just not a very good Kindle player then :P

Though to be honest how many attacks do you really need in order to make it worth while? If both players are being cautious then 1 or 2 good tank hits is actually quite a lots. And it's not just about hits that land, the hits you threaten but never need to make probably count for more.

Blight is calculable like everything else.


Indeed, Barter is also calculable, doesn't mean it isn't ridiculously cheap too.

Setting indirects on cities is standard for Kindle, but not for her opponents. Directs like defense more, indirects don't want to be attacked.


I dunno, I play Lash a lot, I like putting rockets on cities. I also like being on cities for Prime Tactics. I also happen to like putting directs on cities too where they can't be attacked.

Note that usually people don't attack tanks on cities with an own tank


See, which is exactly why I hate being forced off cities by Kindle.

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Postby Ultra Storm » Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:40 am

Couldn't Smacky just play as Kindle against Hellraider who would use some other CO? After all, actual gameplay is better proof than theorycrafting.
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Postby Hellraider » Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:48 am

I know what Kindles day to day is, but I was comparing her to the other candidates for top tier, not with Adder. VBs dtd isn't "slightly easier to use", it is probably the best nonbroken dtd on AWBW. His SCOP isn't fail either, it totally wins games on small maps. Kindle units with High Society and 17 properties have about as much attack as Grimm with his COP.

You get forced off cities every COP by Kindle. You get forced out of infantry range every COP by Nell. You get forced out of 3-move mechs range every Sami COP. Your indirects are basically useless every COP against Javier1T. I don't see what is soo much better with Kindle COP.

Obviously, Lash and Kindle like indirects on cities. Others end up with indirects on cities often because they are easy to move on. But indirects don't want to be attacked anyway, so they can just stand somewhere else.
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Postby benbever » Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:22 pm

Rockets like to be on cities, for protection and resupply. :) Kindles cop is very good, one of the best (of the nonbrokens) in the game, the other cops you mentioned are the best in the game too, they can compare to blight :)

I personally think Colin is way better than Hachi. His d2d is better, he saves double what Hachi saves, and more likely to be able to build a key unit much earlier.
The problem with Hachi is that if he saves up 60k and uses a power then his 60k will be worth 120k... but only for that one day. That means he has to spend it all in one day or lose it. This is quite difficult to do during COP. Easier during SCOP but that is more expensive.


Totally map dependant, Hachi is way better than colin on some maps, Colin is way better on others. Colin gets his units more cheaply, that is true. But Compared to other co's, Colin gets his units way more cheap. Compared to Hachi, he gets them only a little more cheap. 90/100 units way more cheap is good, 90/100 units only a little more cheap is not so good.

Colin loses to Hachi when Hachi can build a lot of 50% cost units on cities on his first scop. Hachi can build a few days worth of extra units, and if done properly he saved up a day of cash to do so. After his first scop, Colin has only copped once or twice, and can't build the really big stuff yet, he'll lose to Hachi's superior numbers. Unless the map is very big, Colin then can take some punishment, fill his meter more and more, cop more, and then get out the really big units.

In the past I've played forum test games where sensei>colin and kindle>von bolt (but only just.)
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Postby Ultra Storm » Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:49 pm

Hachi is brilliant on maps with a lot of cities and only few bases. SCOP for a few instant frontline megatanks and use the rest of the funds for mass md.tanks and infantries. Hachi is often easier to use than Colin and has an early advantage. Colin has good chances if using black bombs is allowed though.
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Postby SmackCakes » Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:59 pm

His SCOP isn't fail either, it totally wins games on small maps.


Yeah VB and Sami are good on small maps because they have powered up infantry too. On the flip side VB's SCOP might not even be noticeable on a large map or FFAs. Sami isn't really at home on large maps either. Kindle however does very well on large maps.

Kindle units with High Society and 17 properties have about as much attack as Grimm with his COP.


Grimm's COP is ridiculous though, it's the same as Max's SCOP +160. and Kindle would have around 300% attack on cities with that.

I agree that Kindle isn't generally as strong d2d as VB or Sami (on a Sami map). However I don't think she is a worse CO. She is certainly a cut above Lash. I think I would choose kindle over Sturm too (assuming Sturm didn't have FTA)

Ultra Storm wrote:Gameplay is better proof than theorycrafting


Proof of what?
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Postby Ultra Storm » Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:27 pm

SmackCakes wrote:
Ultra Storm wrote:Gameplay is better proof than theorycrafting


Proof of what?

proof that Kindle is better/worse than CO X on map Y
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Postby Sothis » Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:51 pm

Except it doesn't prove that, unless the players are of equal skill.

And by the way the image of "Kindle pissing from a great height" was hilarious. :lol:
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Postby Ultra Storm » Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:23 pm

Sothis wrote:Except it doesn't prove that, unless the players are of equal skill.

Switch sides and see what happens or play with some other people as well. But even playing one game is better than none.
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Postby Felix45 » Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:27 pm

if the players are similar in skill it is worth playing. and for hellraider vs ben that is about as even as it gets.

the test game ben made vs echelon though (in the nell topic), that is not equal skill and doesn't really prove anything.
[23:09] <Gabo> hey guys, i have a question
[23:09] <Gabo> is it possible to transfer games from one account toanother on steam?
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Postby benbever » Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:49 pm

But a game is better than no game ;) it would show how awesome Nell is, it might not "prove" anything, but well.. all players make mistakes and there's always the map to blame for co X not doing well against co Y.
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Postby mrapex » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:59 am

made a game on a simple 1v1. name: hachi is the greatest!
Pass: ben

And if I win that will prove something...


On a side note, I think that Sasha will usually beat out kindle and I know that there is a circumstance where kindle will pwn but thats another thing. I believe awbw is funds based and kindle can occasionally break a line and lead to a win but the income generated by sasha > dmg inflicted by kindle.
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Postby benbever » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:08 am

ok, I joined, but Hachi might very well win, since he is a great co. I think he might have trouble against sensei (early game) and kanbei (which'll be a tough and long game.) Hachi probably beats colin on that map (though i'm not sure) and maybe Grit (because of the airports.)

Sasha and Kindle are a good matchup. Sasha beats co's with long powerbars, but Kindles cop comes trough quite often, and Kindles d2d can be dangerous to Sasha. But 110% income is game winning too ;)
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Postby Ultra Storm » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:16 am

I'd say Kanbei is the most broken CO on standard maps (small, 3 bases and 1 airport). Colin and Hachi have trouble saving enough money before Kanbei totally steamrolls them on such small maps. The tendency to make maps more open and the presence of airports nowadays also hurt Grit. Sensei is also quite good with strong infantries and copters and can often get an early advantage against Colin and Hachi.
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