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The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby Ultra Storm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:20 am

benbever wrote:So it's the old Kindle is good/not so great discussion again?

The fact that a cheap cop for Adder is good does not mean that it isn't good for Kindle. Both get a relatively good cop for cheap allowing them to often act first, and more often. If Kindle had a more expensive cop then she wouldn't be as good as she is now.

Threatening often works for me. And if it's doesn't work then nothing is lost. Your opponent will either need to hold off repairs or do the repairs and end up with -3hp+2hp units. So it's a lose-lose choice for him. Waiting for the perfect moment to (S)COP and ending up with a full meter is something only new players do. (It's almost never good.) Kindle shouldn't have to do that. You can always just COP since it's never a bad thing to do. And the charging between the COP and (rarely used) SCOP means that little charge will go to waste (as with overcharging SCOP.) Of course you lose charge on COP turns, but all COP CO's have to deal with that. You still get faster and more power turns.
Urban Blight isn't bad for you, but it doesn't help a lot either. You do indeed cut the hp of a few units and perform a small fund cut, but you have very little attacking power. So, they can usually call your threat and accept the cuts. Yes, you have lost nothing, but you have also gained very little. They can wait until they have Typhoon, Hyper Upgrade, Haymaker etc. which threaten to collapse entire fronts. Honestly, Kindle should stick to SCOP in many situations, since it's usually around +50/+10, at least. It isn't horrible as a boost, but Grimm usually does the same better.

http://awbw.amarriner.com/replay.php?ga ... 060&ndx=26 For example, this is your COP turn in the game vs Diwa. It didn't really do much aside from stopping a capture and the usual small fund and hp cut. You also didn't get to attack from properties very often. You weren't doing badly in the game but you would have done almost as well with a bland, powerless CO. Andy would have certainly been better. It is a bad map for Kindle, but not the ideal for Max either.

Kindle doesn't exist in a vacuum. When we discuss whether Kindle is good or bad, we have to do so comparing to other COs. Should we pick her over Drake, Andy or Grimm? If not, aren't we really saying Kindle is good in low tier?

benbever wrote:I like to outright spam bcopters. They can be the main attacking unit, they do enough damage. They do need tank backup, just as tanks need AA backup. I won my last match VS BMB easily with bcopter spam. He was Drake and had to resort to 80/100 bcopters and lots of AA that were weak to my tanks. Of course you can also just use one or two as disruption. It all depends on the map, co's, opponent and preference.
I followed that game, and the mass copters worked so well because BMB built too many copters as Drake and too few AAs. His AAs were also oddly positioned sometimes, so you got free shots. Even so, the copters on both sides had short lifespans compared to the tanks, and I think a few more tanks wouldn't have hurt. He gave up much of Drake's usefulness by building too many copters and using COP first instead of SCOP. Actually, BMB could have still realistically gone for the win near the end by going for megatanks or at least md tanks in the north and prolonging the game.

Of course, there are maps where spamming air units works well. These are usually the ones where terrain makes AA defence impossible or there are a lot of funds and only 2 bases.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby benbever » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:58 am

Ok I'll show you some bcopter spam in our league games then. Better start building AA ;)

In the game vs Diwa, Kindle was a bad pick and the game was pretty hopeless against Max. (Who is also good with threatening with cop btw.)

You can't compare kindles cop with other co's scop. By the time other co's get scop, Kindle has already used cop twice or is close to. Kindles cop also hurts units on neutral property and on (or even capturing) your property. And they don't get repairs then. With Kindles cop you can even disrupt the capture phase sometimes because she gets it so early. It's all these things together that make het a good and versatile co.

We were comparing her against co's on the tournament map, ie Andy and Drake, and maybe Grimm and Rachel. I picked Andy as a counter, otherwise I'd have picked Kindle (where you picked Drake.)

Maybe your point is that Kindle has been overrated and overpicked ever since she was introduced on awbw. While in reality she is almost never a match for the likes of Von Bolt.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby Felix45 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:13 am

I still think Kindle is better by far than all of the COs. I wouldn't take drake or andy over kindle unless there are no contested properties at all (but that is never the case...I don't play on bad maps ;) )

I guess I stand alone. I suppose I don't mind though, I like having the advantage. If everyone thinks I am just on an even playing field and not at an advantage, all the better for me.
[23:09] <Gabo> hey guys, i have a question
[23:09] <Gabo> is it possible to transfer games from one account toanother on steam?
[23:09] <felix45> fire away lotion master
[23:10] <felix45> ROFL
[23:10] <Gabo> =_=
[23:10] <felix45> sorry I cant let that go :P
[23:10] <felix45> oh and I dont think so gabo
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby Ultra Storm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:59 am

benbever wrote:You can't compare kindles cop with other co's scop. By the time other co's get scop, Kindle has already used cop twice or is close to.
That is only the case if you don't attack during COP. You don't gain charge on the turn you use COP and charging slows down every time you use it. And if you don't attack, the total damage relies on the city damage alone, which isn't a lot compared to launching a front-wide attack. Incidentally, the damage output of Typhoon is normally at least 3 times as much as Urban Blight, so even if nobody attacks on COP/SCOP turns, Drake will produce more damage.

If you do launch a major attack during COP, the other player will charge meter while you don't, so they will probably have SCOP right next turn. That way, you don't get to use COP much more often.

benbever wrote:Kindles cop also hurts units on neutral property and on (or even capturing) your property. And they don't get repairs then. With Kindles cop you can even disrupt the capture phase sometimes because she gets it so early. It's all these things together that make het a good and versatile co.
I can't remember seeing Urban Blight before the capture phase was effectively done. It's true that stopping captures is one of the best uses of it, and an early capture delay would have an enormous cost on the other player. The problem is that usually there aren't many captures going on anymore.

benbever wrote:Maybe your point is that Kindle has been overrated and overpicked ever since she was introduced on awbw. While in reality she is almost never a match for the likes of Von Bolt.
Yes, Kindle was overrated. Furthermore, the maps had many contested property clusters in the past, and people played more carelessly, letting their units get attacked from cities and so on. The reality is that nowadays, she can't take on the top tier or high tier, and hardly even the mid tier.

To explain further about copters:
benbever wrote:I like to outright spam bcopters. They can be the main attacking unit, they do enough damage. They do need tank backup, just as tanks need AA backup. I won my last match VS BMB easily with bcopter spam. He was Drake and had to resort to 80/100 bcopters and lots of AA that were weak to my tanks.
Copters and tanks can 2HKO tanks (sometimes only 3HKO) and tanks 2HKO AAs, but AAs OHKO copters. So, if copters are your main unit, you have a hard time doing more damage than you take from the counterattack unless the terrain is heavily in favor of air units. After all, tanks are cheaper, have better defence and get terrain defence. This is what I meant about copters being fragile. You can't dismiss building AAs by them being weak to tanks, since the enemy will have tanks as well, as long as there's enough base capacity.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby benbever » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:39 am

Ultra Storm wrote:That is only the case if you don't attack during COP. You don't gain charge on the turn you use COP and charging slows down every time you use it. And if you don't attack, the total damage relies on the city damage alone, which isn't a lot compared to launching a front-wide attack. Incidentally, the damage output of Typhoon is normally at least 3 times as much as Urban Blight, so even if nobody attacks on COP/SCOP turns, Drake will produce more damage.

From experience I know that a co with a cheap cop like kindle can sometimes get two cops in before the opponent scops, or otherwise she can cop first, then take a scop and then do a cop the turn after that and then cop first again. You can also charge on cop turns by attacking first and then using cop. It's not charging on the opponents turn that is the problem. but charging up to three stars twice, even with a not charging turn in between, is often easier then charging up a 9 star scop.
Typhoon doesn't do 3 times as much damage "normally." It all depends on the map. 2 mass damage leaves units instantly repaired or at 8hp so they can be repaired next turn. 3 damage to property leaves units at 7hp or 9hp or unaffected. On maps with low basecount (2 bases) repairs are very important, and over half of the units can be on urban terrain on maps like that.

I don't think people played more carelesly back then. It's just that there are a lot more players now who know how to play. I mean I don't see as many bases left open to save for neotanks and bombers. But that doesn't change how useful Kindle is.
Kindle can't take on the top tier on nowadays maps (neither can Sami) but she's definately high tier.

Ultra Storm wrote:Copters and tanks can 2HKO tanks (sometimes only 3HKO) and tanks 2HKO AAs, but AAs OHKO copters. So, if copters are your main unit, you have a hard time doing more damage than you take from the counterattack unless the terrain is heavily in favor of air units. After all, tanks are cheaper, have better defence and get terrain defence. This is what I meant about copters being fragile. You can't dismiss building AAs by them being weak to tanks, since the enemy will have tanks as well, as long as there's enough base capacity.

There isn't unlimited base capacity. You can build a tank + bcopter and an infantry or mech and your bcopter hating opponent can only build an tank + AA on a map with only 2 bases. Unit count still matter a lot. Even on maps with 3 or 4 bases. Advance wars isn't as black and white as bcopter kills tank kills AA kills bcopter. There's also artillery that can destroy tanks but not bcopters. And mechs on mountain who start their day by beating up a tank but can't do anything against a bcopter. Bcopters are more expensive because they have more range (depending on map) and less enemy units.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby Walker » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:00 pm

benbever wrote:From experience I know that a co with a cheap cop like kindle can sometimes get two cops in before the opponent scops, or otherwise she can cop first, then take a scop and then do a cop the turn after that and then cop first again. You can also charge on cop turns by attacking first and then using cop. It's not charging on the opponents turn that is the problem. but charging up to three stars twice, even with a not charging turn in between, is often easier then charging up a 9 star scop.

Strangely, my experience here says the exact opposite... Generally Kindle's COP is best used at the start of the turn, and generally it's going to be most effective if you launch an attack simultaneously. If this isn't the case, then you don't get a whole lot from her COP, since it will just cause your opponent some minor funding loss and damage. So if you COP then attack, your opponent can charge a fair amount of their bar on that turn. Then they can also charge at the start of their turn, and if they have a 6-star bar (like Andy, Rachel, and Grimm) then it's very easy to throw away a couple weakened units or start an attack and then SCOP. And for all 3, their SCOP is going to hurt A LOT more than Kindle's COP. If the opponent has Drake or Olaf, who have 7-star bars, their SCOP will be at most 1 turn afterwards, and will once again absolutely wreck a line, especially Olaf. No idea where you're pulling 9-star from for a mid-tier CO.

So in the worst-case (and not that unlikely) scenario, Kindle's COP is countered by the opponent's SCOP on the opponent's next turn. In this situation, both CO's bars are now even, and Kindle almost certainly took much, much heavier damage than the opponent. In the best-case scenario, Kindle's COP is countered by the opponent's SCOP on the turn after next. In this situation, Kindle at least gets some charge on her bar, but it's at a reduced rate. And if Kindle manages to charge enough to be able to COP again, then it probably means that all of your units are now dead. So being able to COP the turn after an SCOP is generally not a good sign.

benbever wrote:Typhoon doesn't do 3 times as much damage "normally." It all depends on the map. 2 mass damage leaves units instantly repaired or at 8hp so they can be repaired next turn. 3 damage to property leaves units at 7hp or 9hp or unaffected. On maps with low basecount (2 bases) repairs are very important, and over half of the units can be on urban terrain on maps like that.

Over half the units on urban terrain. :lol: That's a good joke, but if the maps you're playing on allow you to place half of your units on urban terrain, or more ludicrously prevent your opponent from placing less than half their units on urban terrain, then no wonder you think Kindle is so good. Unfortunately, there are no such maps used in competition with maybe the exception of NIghtmares Echo.

Anyways, barring playing on ridiculously urban maps, the main difference between Typhoon and Blight is that Typhoon will leave a majority of units at 8hp. For tanks and copters, this means you can no longer get 2HKOs vs. full hp tanks even on plains, and you can no longer 2HKO infs on cities. Meanwhile, now Drake gets 2HKOs all over the place, and even the chance for OHKOs in some places. Blight will place some units in key positions at 7hp, but Kindle generally still needs a 2HKO to finish off the 7hp unit, and then needs the opponent to have placed something important immediately adjacent to the city to get a OHKO and break their lines, which is an easily avoided scenario usually for the opponent. After the turn when Blight occurs, it is guaranteed that every unit Blight damaged will get repaired -- it's a one-turn threat that doesn't make much difference on the next turn. Meanwhile, unless you can rush your units to cities immediately (extremely unlikely), Drake has now left a large part of your army at 8hp indefinitely. Thus, generally the effect of Typhoon is felt for more turns than Blight.

All that said, I still think Kindle > Drake until the map gets large enough, because the 7 bars is harder to charge and the mass damage isn't as effective. Plus on smaller maps, the property or two funding advantage Kindle can get in the capture phase from being aggressive will hurt more than on larger maps with more properties. Unfortunately for Kindle, most of the maps being used in competitions are getting to the size where she is probably about even with someone like Drake...
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby benbever » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:44 pm

Walker wrote:Strangely, my experience here says the exact opposite... Generally Kindle's COP is best used at the start of the turn, and generally it's going to be most effective if you launch an attack simultaneously...So if you COP then attack, your opponent can charge a fair amount of their bar on that turn. Then they can also charge at the start of their turn, and if they have a 6-star bar (like Andy, Rachel, and Grimm) then it's very easy to throw away a couple weakened units or start an attack and then SCOP. And for all 3, their SCOP is going to hurt A LOT more than Kindle's COP. If the opponent has Drake or Olaf, who have 7-star bars, their SCOP will be at most 1 turn afterwards, and will once again absolutely wreck a line, especially Olaf. No idea where you're pulling 9-star from for a mid-tier CO.

The 9-stars are for Hawke and Eagle. I was talking about doing two cops before enemy cop and that can be done vs eagle but not vs andy.
COP is best done at the start of the turn, but after charging a bit where you don't need the attack and defence boost and the mass damage. Of course attacking during cop is good. And if you cop (after charging to 3 stars) and can do so much damage early in the game to charge your opponent to 6 or 7 stars, then he'll have almost no units left and you'll probably have won. No scop will do much good if you're that far behind in units. You can also use cop to gain some advantage in units or income, then start playing defensively while leaving your opponent witha bar of 5 out of 6 stars. That's a much more preferable and realistic situation then mass suicide attacking and charging your opponent all the way to scop.

Walker wrote:Over half the units on urban terrain. :lol: That's a good joke, but if the maps you're playing on allow you to place half of your units on urban terrain, or more ludicrously prevent your opponent from placing less than half their units on urban terrain, then no wonder you think Kindle is so good. Unfortunately, there are no such maps used in competition with maybe the exception of NIghtmares Echo.

And all 2 base maps. Have you never played long games on 2 base maps? Some 3 base maps too. I said "can have over half the units on urban terrain" but one third is more realistic for three base maps. If people hold off repairs on long drawn out games, then that's an advantage for Kindle too.

Walker wrote:Meanwhile, unless you can rush your units to cities immediately (extremely unlikely), Drake has now left a large part of your army at 8hp indefinitely. Thus, generally the effect of Typhoon is felt for more turns than Blight.

Why should my army be at 8hp indefinately? Usually the 8hp units are destroyed or traded, repaired or merged the turn after the mass damage scop or the turn after that. The drake opponent will always see the scop coming and place units so they are prepared best as possible for the scop. Of course Typhoon is better than blight, that's why it costs 7 stars instead of just 3.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby Walker » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:04 pm

Unfortunately, I don't think Urban Blight usually comes in early enough to gain a significant income advantage (as US said, I never see until the capture phase is mostly over at the earliest), and Kindle's d2d is better for that anyways. I think the main point of contention is whether the benefits of Kindle's d2d and early COP (which affects a relatively small # of units) are worth as much as the benefits of having a powerful SCOP (which affects many more units). I don't think they are, especially on larger maps with more units and properties per player, because I've seen too many times where Kindle hasn't been able to gain a large enough advantage to avoid being swept away when the powerful SCOPs inevitably come into play.

However this is way off topic for the GT2, and as usual it's easiest to have concrete game examples to talk about instead of theoretical situations. So I'd be very interested in discussing some of the GT2 games with Kindle (especially the two Kindle vs. Drake games) as they progress and seeing how well everyone's arguments hold up in actual game situations.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby Ultra Storm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:24 pm

benbever wrote:From experience I know that a co with a cheap cop like kindle can sometimes get two cops in before the opponent scops, or otherwise she can cop first, then take a scop and then do a cop the turn after that and then cop first again. You can also charge on cop turns by attacking first and then using cop. It's not charging on the opponents turn that is the problem. but charging up to three stars twice, even with a not charging turn in between, is often easier then charging up a 9 star scop.
But the enemy can also charge during their turn before they use SCOP, especially if they use mass damage. My experience tells that if you launch a major attack with a 3-star COP, there is a high chance they charge a SCOP worth 6 or 7 stars. Charging 9 stars is more difficult, but it will most likely come on the following turn at latest. Now, it is possible to crush the enemy front before they have time to SCOP if you get a major boost like with Grimm, but Kindle doesn't have that kind of raw attack. It's more of a fund cut.

benbever wrote:Typhoon doesn't do 3 times as much damage "normally." It all depends on the map. 2 mass damage leaves units instantly repaired or at 8hp so they can be repaired next turn. 3 damage to property leaves units at 7hp or 9hp or unaffected. On maps with low basecount (2 bases) repairs are very important, and over half of the units can be on urban terrain on maps like that.
I can't remember when I have seen over half the units on urban terrain, other than during the early capture phase. Maybe if the property density is very high, but we don't play on maps like that. You realistically hit about 5-8 units with Urban Blight, 3 of which are probably newly built. You hit 7 in your game vs. Diwa. Maybe he positioned a few of them differently to avoid being hit, but it didn't seem to weaken him.

I counted total damage, since we were discussing fund cuts and the like. But the real problem is that even if you can in theory repair Typhoon damage, it is much more difficult. A much bigger portion of the damaged units are on the front line and the enemy will almost certainly attack on the Typhoon turn. This results in many units below 8 hp and it is hard to withdraw everything for repairs when you're under attack. Kindle can't attack much during COP, because only a handful units on the front are weakened.

benbever wrote:I don't think people played more carelesly back then. It's just that there are a lot more players now who know how to play. I mean I don't see as many bases left open to save for neotanks and bombers.
The two are related. Blindly rushing in with units is both careless and bad gameplay. The level of competitive gameplay has become tougher recently, and it looks like people calculate their turns more.

benbever wrote:But that doesn't change how useful Kindle is.
Kindle can't take on the top tier on nowadays maps (neither can Sami) but she's definately high tier.
High tier, as understood today, involves Hawke, Eagle and Olaf, at least. Maybe you could include Sami or Max. I can't remember Kindle winning against any of them in a competitive game recently, discluding maybe Max on maps that don't suit him. Do you have any examples of Kindle's success?

benbever wrote:
Ultra Storm wrote:Copters and tanks can 2HKO tanks (sometimes only 3HKO) and tanks 2HKO AAs, but AAs OHKO copters. So, if copters are your main unit, you have a hard time doing more damage than you take from the counterattack unless the terrain is heavily in favor of air units. After all, tanks are cheaper, have better defence and get terrain defence. This is what I meant about copters being fragile. You can't dismiss building AAs by them being weak to tanks, since the enemy will have tanks as well, as long as there's enough base capacity.

There isn't unlimited base capacity. You can build a tank + bcopter and an infantry or mech and your bcopter hating opponent can only build an tank + AA on a map with only 2 bases. Unit count still matter a lot. Even on maps with 3 or 4 bases. Advance wars isn't as black and white as bcopter kills tank kills AA kills bcopter. There's also artillery that can destroy tanks but not bcopters. And mechs on mountain who start their day by beating up a tank but can't do anything against a bcopter. Bcopters are more expensive because they have more range (depending on map) and less enemy units.
I did mention the scenario with 2 bases and sufficient funds. Unit count is important but in lategame, the number of vehicles is more important than the number of infantry, even though infantry is still useful.

Being immune to arties is useful, but this is most beneficial when the number of copters is relatively low. If you have many copters, they will have AAs everywhere and fewer arties in the first place. Of course, the terrain affects this greatly, but I mentioned that already. As for mechs, you usually don't have to worry about them in the first place, because they are highly situational. Mechs are too slow to reach their target units or get first strike on them. If you want to defend your base, you're better off with a md tank.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby benbever » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:24 pm

walker wrote:However this is way off topic for the GT2, and as usual it's easiest to have concrete game examples to talk about instead of theoretical situations. So I'd be very interested in discussing some of the GT2 games with Kindle (especially the two Kindle vs. Drake games) as they progress and seeing how well everyone's arguments hold up in actual game situations.

You also need opponents on equal and high enough skill levels who know how to play Kindle and Drake. So if you want, and have time, make a game on Stir Before Using, join as Drake and I'll join as kindle.

Ultra Storm wrote:My experience tells that if you launch a major attack with a 3-star COP, there is a high chance they charge a SCOP worth 6 or 7 stars. Charging 9 stars is more difficult, but it will most likely come on the following turn at latest.

I don't think having a 3-star cop attack against you automatically charges your bar to 6 stars. Not if the opponent is any good. And it will definately not magically fill a 9 star scop. Especially not kindles cop; 7hp units fill the meter only 70% that 10hp units do.
I'll watch out for the scop charging in our max vs hawke game. So if I pull a Max 3 star cop attack, then Hawke will have his 9 star scop ready the turn after the next?

Ultra Storm wrote:I can't remember when I have seen over half the units on urban terrain, other than during the early capture phase. Maybe if the property density is very high, but we don't play on maps like that. You realistically hit about 5-8 units with Urban Blight, 3 of which are probably newly built. You hit 7 in your game vs. Diwa.

I was talking about 2 base maps where repairs are important. I was not talking about maps with high property density where we don't play on, and I was not talking about the kindle unfriendly setup on the 3 base map vs diwa.

Ultra Storm wrote:But the real problem is that even if you can in theory repair Typhoon damage, it is much more difficult. A much bigger portion of the damaged units are on the front line and the enemy will almost certainly attack on the Typhoon turn. This results in many units below 8 hp and it is hard to withdraw everything for repairs when you're under attack.

This is why you don't want a massive buildup of troops vs a mass damage co like hawke, olaf or drake. You'll want to attack and trade off units. Like in my game VS BMB as Drake. Once you start building up units that'll just get hurt by mass damage then you'll probably lose.

Ultra Storm wrote:High tier, as understood today, involves Hawke, Eagle and Olaf, at least.

I'd play a game with Kindle vs Hawke, Eagle or Olaf (if the map isn't horribly against her) and won't think anything's unfair. Kindle can do a lot before those co's get scop.

Ultra Storm wrote:If you have many copters, they will have AAs everywhere and fewer arties in the first place. Of course, the terrain affects this greatly, but I mentioned that already. As for mechs, you usually don't have to worry about them in the first place, because they are highly situational. Mechs are too slow to reach their target units or get first strike on them. If you want to defend your base, you're better off with a md tank.

There are still a few league maps with mountains where mechs are great. If you build bcopters and your opponent builds many AA then I think you'll have the advantage with artilleries and mechs. The AA are only good against the bcopters, but shouldn't be able to catch them while the bcopters are very versatile.
bcopterspam isn't an auto winning tactic by any means, but it isn't often a losing tactic (like mach spam) either. Feel free to win your games without bcopterspam, while I win my games with bcopterspam ;)
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby Walker » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:41 pm

benbever wrote:You also need opponents on equal and high enough skill levels who know how to play Kindle and Drake. So if you want, and have time, make a game on Stir Before Using, join as Drake and I'll join as kindle.

Sure, but I'd prefer to use a map other than Stir Before Using. If you don't mind picking a league map, I'll gladly make a game for us.

If this discussion keeps going long enough, I'll probably also request that it get split and moved to a more appropriate place, perhaps the Official Tier List thread.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby Ultra Storm » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:37 pm

benbever wrote:I don't think having a 3-star cop attack against you automatically charges your bar to 6 stars. Not if the opponent is any good. And it will definately not magically fill a 9 star scop. Especially not kindles cop; 7hp units fill the meter only 70% that 10hp units do. I'll watch out for the scop charging in our max vs hawke game. So if I pull a Max 3 star cop attack, then Hawke will have his 9 star scop ready the turn after the next?
Why would you only attack the handful of 7 hp units? Most of the units will be at 10 hp. In any case, of course it isn't automatical to charge a long meter by a COP attack and the following brawl. If the unit count is small, then maybe not right away. But Hawke has beaten Max so many times in the gt alone that it doesn't usually appear to be a problem.

benbever wrote:I was talking about 2 base maps where repairs are important. I was not talking about maps with high property density where we don't play on, and I was not talking about the kindle unfriendly setup on the 3 base map vs diwa.
benbever wrote:I'd play a game with Kindle vs Hawke, Eagle or Olaf (if the map isn't horribly against her) and won't think anything's unfair. Kindle can do a lot before those co's get scop.
Even on 2-base maps, there usually aren't enough repairs to force half the units onto properties. Which maps are Kindle-friendly enough and has Kindle beaten anyone there?

benbever wrote:This is why you don't want a massive buildup of troops vs a mass damage co like hawke, olaf or drake. You'll want to attack and trade off units. Like in my game VS BMB as Drake. Once you start building up units that'll just get hurt by mass damage then you'll probably lose.
Yes, but it was only possible because BMB had misplaced some units, letting you get so many free shots. It looked like you won with superior micromanagement, not CO advantage.

benbever wrote:The AA are only good against the bcopters, but shouldn't be able to catch them while the bcopters are very versatile.
AAs can OHKO inf walls and take out heavily wounded vehicles. They do tons of damage to copters even when wounded, so you can't always just suicide tanks into them. AAs can also be used for walling in some cases due to their copter resistance, but this is more prominent in hf.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby Hellraider » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:43 pm

The best Kindle maps in the league maps pool are probably Nightmares Echo in my Head and Caustic Finale. On both maps it's very hard to avoid being on or next to cities, and on Nightmares Echo she has a strong SCOP as well. Although I still wouldn't pick her in high tier unless my opponent bribes me, it is fair to say that Kindle can beat out most of the mid tier COs (Andy, Rachel, Drake, Grimm) there. On City of Storms, Puyo and maybe another 1-2 maps I could see myself picking Kindle in mid tier. On the remaining maps I would barely consider her, and Stir before Using falls into this category as well.

If the map is big enough you can't force an attack before a sizeable amount of vehicles is up, and then charging up a 6-7 star SCOP is really not hard. Even if Kindle only kills 3 vehicles and some infantry in her COP turn, that's already 6 stars for the opponent. It's reasonable enough to assume that you will meet a SCOP as an immediate response.
It's bad enough for Max and Grimm already, but unlike them Kindle lacks the punch to kill the opponent with COP. Repair denying and weakened reinforcements/fund drain are fairly situational advantages that don't hinder the opponent from doing something right now. So Urban Blight doesn't make it harder for the opponent to gain charge in any way (apart from attacking full hp city units with a unit that suffers counterattack), which is something that a lot of COPs suffer from.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby Ultra Storm » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:41 am

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=171409
http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=171422
Boot strikes again. There will be no Kindle data from those games, at least.
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Re: The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

Postby excrimophalus 1 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:34 pm

In season five of the Colosseum, I played Ultra twice. On hypnotize, I chose Olaf, he chose Kindle. Winner: Olaf. On Atrocious I picked Kindle and Ultra chose Olaf. Winner: Olaf.

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=150531

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=147225

Hypnotize was hardly an ideal map for Olaf, very small with roughly 13k per side. And I thought atrocious would be a good map for kindle, with about 21k per side and a tower. Fair amount of cities. I thought her scop would be a threat here. Not really the case. In both games there were common themes. The player using Kindle took a significant early advantage, with a funding and units edge (maybe around days 10-12). However Kindle just has no knockout strength. She had no aspect that was overwhelming, and she was not able to put Olaf away. Her scop is not to effective especially for six stars. Against top players, her cop is pesky and will give her an early edge, but it won't be enough to take a decisive advantage. Against cos with big scops, like Olaf, he will still be in the game enough that when he uses scop it will be the end. All it took was one Olaf scop....and that was it for both games. Kindle will struggle even more against a co like Hawke, with comparable powers to Olaf but a better d2d.
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