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nb4DS

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nb4DS

Postby ichbinsehselber » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:14 pm

Apparently nb4DS (http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=34791) is no longer in the list of maps of League 1 and 7. Was it removed on purpose? I find this map one of the best maps of all. The games are always very dynamic and full of action.
Could it please be added back in? Perhaps also add it to the new league?
Last edited by ichbinsehselber on Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: nb4DS

Postby Walker » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:36 pm

It was removed temporarily by me so that Wes can make a couple edits. Then it is going into the new league, and back into the old leagues. I'm pretty surprised you caught that it was out, I literally removed it two days ago haha.
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Re: nb4DS

Postby blanci1 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:33 am

id like to see it in fog league (F8) too... i never played it yet.

I hope he doesnt edit it too much... better to just make a new version especially if its basically well liked already.
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Re: nb4DS

Postby funwes » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:26 am

It should be in its final stage now, unless Walker takes it out of the leagues again to force me to edit it.

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Re: nb4DS

Postby ichbinsehselber » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:41 am

Apparently the forward airport was swapped with a city.

Sorry, but I have to say this was a very bad edit in my opinion. It is changing an excellent map to a good map (only).
The map made a completely different build order valid. I.e. make an AA as the first vehicle. Now we have to revert to standard play.

The map lost its specialty the forward protected airport. Now it is a standard map only. Still a valid good normal map though.

Could you please revert those changes?
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Re: nb4DS

Postby funwes » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:35 am

The alleged problem was that the first to build a copter would control the center
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Re: nb4DS

Postby Walker » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:43 pm

ichbinsehselber wrote:Sorry, but I have to say this was a very bad edit in my opinion. It is changing an excellent map to a good map (only).
The map made a completely different build order valid. I.e. make an AA as the first vehicle. Now we have to revert to standard play.

The map lost its specialty the forward protected airport. Now it is a standard map only. Still a valid good normal map though.

Well I'm the one who requested the edit. So you can complain to me if anyone.

It is not changing an excellent map to a good map, it is rather fixing a small imbalance on an otherwise excellent map. As wes stated above, the problem with the forward airport was that the first one to build a b-copter can very easily control the center of the map. Because the center is very important in terms of controlling the game (due to both unit movement possibilities and the properties there), that is a problem.

I know that you can and will argue that an early b-copter can be countered by an AA or 2nd copter. So let's say you build an AA first to counter a potential first b-copter by your opponent. Now your opponent can build a tank instead, and his tank will be able to control the center against your AA. If you try to counter with your own b-copter, your opponent will have the positioning advantage in the center and will be able to force you out. While this is not a game-winning advantage by any means, it is an advantage that causes an imbalance nonetheless, and therefore it should be fixed (and has been).

Don't believe me? Let's look at a game, your game in fact.

Day 5 - Kam's turn
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Ichbin decides to build an AA first in order to counter a potential copter from Kam. However Kam decided to go with an artillery first, instead of a tank (which he had enough funds for). If Kam had built a tank, he would have had control of the center over ichbin's AA, making ichbin's AA counter strategy less than ideal.

Day 7 - Kam's turn
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However, Kam does not build the tank until later, and ichbin is the first one to get a copter on day 7. The center is still not controlled by either side, although ichbin's tank gives him an edge over Kam's arty (which is one reason going arty first can be a bad idea, although that's not related to the copter issue).

Day 8 - Kam's turn
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As you can see, Kam counters with an AA but it is a bit too late, because ichbin already has control of the center. Kam could counter safely with a copter (which he does later), but ichbin's copter already has superior positioning in the center.

In the end, Kam still had a good chance at winning the game, but he was playing from behind. This was partially because he didn't go tank first and cancel ichbin's AA first strategy, and partially because ichbin built the first b-copter and gained easy control of the center. I think in a perfectly played game, though, the AA first strategy is not viable and that the first b-copter will control the center. This is a common problem on a lot of maps (you can ask Hellraider or Ultra Storm about it if you don't believe me).

Moving the airport back fixes this problem without changing the dynamic of the map. An early copter is still a valid strategy, but it takes 2 turns to get it into a position to control the center. This means that an AA can actually be built in time to counter it without having to preemptively build it, and a countering copter can at least keep the 1st copter from controlling the center completely. Copters are still very useful because they can get to the center faster than tanks, and because there's only 2 bases and plenty of funds. But they are no longer imbalanced.

I urge you to actually play a game on the new version of the map before you complain about it. :wink:
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Re: nb4DS

Postby ichbinsehselber » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:25 pm

I was also a bit surprised that Kam buit an Arty instead of a tank. But it is hard to look at only this one point in isolation. If he had built a tank, he would not be able to afford another set of Arty and inf on the next turn.
All that due to the strategy of sending runners capturing central properties (which Kam played here and which I also saw you and other players do sometimes) instead of going fast high income (which I did).

I am ready to try the new map but I still think it is a pity to give up the original map. On the assumption that all your analysis is right it should still be ok that some maps call for different strategies. At least it is not so obvious that there is no room for actually having to play it out to prove it...
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Re: nb4DS

Postby Walker » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:02 pm

Well in the worst case scenario, all of my suggestions are horribly wrong, the map with the new airport location fails miserably, and wes changes it back to how it was. You should be aware though that nb4DS is one of my top 5 favorite maps and so I would rather like it to remain as much the same as possible. But the airport fix is just that, a fix, and in my opinion one that solves any potential imbalances without losing what makes the map so excellent.
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Re: nb4DS

Postby funwes » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:15 pm

And no towers :evil:




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Re: nb4DS

Postby Walker » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:23 pm

*shoves wes into a closet*

Who said anything about towers? Certainly not me.
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Re: nb4DS

Postby blanci1 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:48 pm

blanci1 wrote:id like to see it in fog league (F8) too... i never played it yet.

I hope he doesnt edit it too much... better to just make a new version especially if its basically well liked already.



its very simple: just make another version, leaving the old version intact. Walker s analysis really needs time to digest and think about, theres no need for precipitous actions :)

Also, a map that has been played on many times and is part of AW history also should clearly be left for posterity, (even if it has some major issues.. it could even be useful as a teaching example) and possible hall of fame or whatever. A seperate version is so easily made without killing off the former.


I cant see how anyone could object to simply having another decent map around .
AW thrives on diversity.
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Re: nb4DS

Postby funwes » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:00 am

I really think you're overreacting to a moved airport @blanci :P Remaking the whole map just for that? Why don't we just let it ride until we figure out which version is more balanced? :)
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Re: nb4DS

Postby blanci1 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:25 am

I thought there were map editors which make it really easy to just copy a map then change something without deleting the original map.

Also it will be difficult for me to compare the two as now the original has gone I cannot see it. (Is it only the forward base swopped with an airport?) ...and now i connot play test it in fog which I had planned to do.

You try to make it sound like a small change, but didnt you read ichbins post...


ichbinsehselber wrote:Apparently the forward airport was swapped with a city..................
The map made a completely different build order valid. I.e. make an AA as the first vehicle. Now we have to revert to standard play.

The map lost its specialty the forward protected airport. Now it is a standard map...... Still a valid good normal map though.

Could you please revert those changes?


that is clearly not a small change, i agree with ichbins.
However the original might have some problems like walker details... but that needs time to consider and go over ... but without the map how can we test it anyway ?

Its not only whether one is better or more balanced ... if people like the bad one then why not let them have it? We can have both and compare them.... only when it is no longer used and of no interest to anyone need we consider to delete it.


It is not only this one map that worries me it is the general principle of not getting rid of all kinds of things around AWBW (maps,tourneys, games even!) especially things that people like and are using, and also the saving of historically interesting things at AWBW. I think should be a general principle of cultural heritage that we need to encourage, like conservation of the environment.

Theres plenty of room at AWBW to have both around... and AW thrives on diversity .
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Re: nb4DS

Postby Walker » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:40 pm

Blanci, change is good. Just chill out and learn to adapt dude, instead of clinging blindly to what you're familiar with.
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